To Confront Climate Change, Imagine Getting It Right

IRA FLATOW: This is Science Friday. I’m Ira Flatow. Part of the reason it’s difficult to talk about climate change is that it can be hard to see a long-term positive outcome for the planet and the people who live on it. But my next guest argues that in order to prevent the worst effects of climate change, we have to start instead by asking ourselves, what if we get it right? Well, Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy wonk, co-founder of the Urban Ocean Lab, and she’s author of a new book with that same title– What if We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures.

In the book, she poses that question to experts in oceans, farming, architecture, finance, even Hollywood to find out what getting it right looks like in their own fields and what those solutions could look like for the rest of us. Dr. Johnson, welcome back to Science Friday.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: It’s so good to be back with you, Ira.

IRA FLATOW: It’s nice to have you. What were you not getting from other climate books or reporting that made you write this book? And it’s a different– it’s a very light, breezy read about the climate.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: I’m glad you feel that way about it. I mean, there’s no sugar coating in this book. I’m not denying the scientific realities of the challenges we face and the odds that we’re up against. But I think it’s so important for people to always keep in mind how much change is still possible, how many different possible futures still exist, and how much power we each have in shaping the future that we get.

To answer your question about why I wrote this book, it’s because, not only in books, but also in pop culture, in Hollywood, so much of the climate information and storytelling is about the apocalypse, the what if we get it wrong, right?

IRA FLATOW: Right.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: And that can be really motivating for people, ugh, we don’t want doom, so what can we do about it? But can also be really depressing and lead to this sense of why bother?

IRA FLATOW: Yeah.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: And so the short answer is– this book is my answer to the question of why we should all bother. Why it is worth the effort, even though none of us can individually control the outcome, to just try anyway?

IRA FLATOW: Interesting point. Because I want to know that when you’re writing it, how do you think of addressing the readers who feel overwhelmed, as you say, by climate change?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: I mean, I just want to say that I’m with them. I mean, I’m with you. This is a lot. No humans have ever had to deal with an existential crisis like the climate crisis. And so, of course, we’re having trouble processing what all this means for us, and the people, and places that we love. That’s a normal reaction.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: But the thing that we need to do is get over that sense of being overwhelmed and channel that emotionality, that love of life, that biophilia– to use E.O. Wilson’s term– to be a part of the solutions. Because as this book and so many scientists and reports have shown us, we really do have an incredible array of solutions. We already know how to electrify transportation, how to produce energy in a clean way, how to shift our agriculture to make that more sustainable, to insulate and green our buildings and infrastructure, to protect and restore ecosystems, to look to photosynthesis as the magical climate solution that it is. We just have to do all these things.

IRA FLATOW: You say that this book is for those who have not found their role in shaping a better climate future. How does it help readers find their superpowers, in your words?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, so the heart of this book is 20 interviews with people who have helped me to see answers to this title question– what if we get it right to see answers in farming, in banking, in investing, in the corporate world, in Hollywood, in the news, in architecture and design, and policy, and activism. And it’s just really exciting to me to see how all of these experts– who are also my friends, so these conversations are really delightful and irreverent– it is not self-serious, navel-gazing– it’s this creative conversation about, OK, if we harness our imaginations, what futures are possible? And what are the barriers preventing us from getting there? And what roles are important to fill?

And so I offer to readers, to listeners, to all of you, this opportunity to think about how we can each must be useful as contributors to the solutions that we already have at our fingertips. And the framework that I offer here is this idea of a climate action Venn diagram.

So if you think about three circles and one of them is what are you good at? So what are your skills, resources, networks, superpowers? What can you specifically bring to the table? That’s one. What are you good at?

The second circle is what work needs doing. Is there a particular climate or climate injustice solution do you want to work on– energy, culture, policy, politics, food systems, whatever? There’s so much work that needs doing. Where do you want to focus your energy?

And the third circle is what brings you joy or satisfaction. What gets you out of bed in the morning? What fires up your imagination, and creativity, and motivates you to want to do this work? Because this is the work of our lifetimes. So we should not be picking something that’s boring or miserable because there’s endless things that need to be done– so really focusing on things that enliven you.

And so the 20 interviews in this book are examples of people who have found their way to the heart of that Venn diagram for themselves. And so there’s a worksheet in the book to help people think through that. There’s a website with resources to help people think through that. The website for the book is getitright.earth that has all of these statistics, and references, and a reading guide, all there for people to think through this. Ultimately, this book is my attempt to welcome people into finding their customized roles in climate solutions.

IRA FLATOW: And picking up on that idea that so much is possible. I look at it as so much has to be made over, right? We have to remake stuff– our infrastructure, our transportation, our electrical system. I mean, how much of what we have now; is going to be left, let’s say, by 2050?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: So one of the things I learned in doing the research for this book was this stat, and it just knocked my socks off. About 75% of the infrastructure that will be in place in 2050 has yet to be built.

IRA FLATOW: 75%.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: 75%. We’re always building, bridges, train tracks, and wastewater treatment, and transmission lines. All of this stuff is getting built and rebuilt all the time so that 25 years from now, 75% of it will be something that didn’t exist right now. And therein lies this enormous opportunity to transform these systems that undergird our society to ones that make sense. If our goal is to live sustainably and well on this planet.

So it’s a terrifying problem to have but also an immense opportunity to transform the world. And so those are the two words that I hold close as I think about the answers to this question of what if we get it right? One is possibility and the other is transformation, because that is the level on, which we need to be thinking, where it’s not just about little tweaks and updates and me recycling better at home. I mean, we should all do as much as we can as individuals. We also need to think about how we can be a part of this larger transformation that needs to happen.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah, we have to think big. So let me let me– let me have you think big with me for a moment. Can you share an intriguing what if we get it right scenario presented by one of your experts that especially excites you?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: One intriguing scenario is something that came up in my conversation with Brian Donahue, who is a farmer and a forester, who is a professor emeritus from Brandeis University, who is focused on this concept of we have all these small towns in America, all these rural and farming communities that have been really hollowed out by a lot of the industrialization and urbanization trends that have happened.

And, of course, these places are all incredibly important to the future of sustainable food systems on our planet. And to think about the urban/rural political divide that’s happening in America, that one of the ways to heal our political divide and heal our food system is to think about what it would look like to repopulate these hollowed out ghost towns that are now across the entire American landscape. And I found that to be a fascinating conversation if we think about getting it right on the politics and getting it right on food and agriculture.

And if you drive down main street in a lot of small towns, it’s depressing. There’s no longer this vibrant hardware store, or grocery store, community meeting places, people sitting outside on benches, neighbors helping each other solve problems, and all of these things that are part of communal, collective life. And if the climate crisis is anything, it’s a collective problem. And so there’s this opportunity to think about community as the foundation of solving all of these problems that are part of the climate challenges that we face.

IRA FLATOW: So instead of it just takes a village, it takes a whole community.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, it takes at every level of that. As a as a policy wonk, as you revealed about me, I think about that also in terms of level of government. So there’s this focus on the presidential election, which can be quite myopic, whereas we also need to be thinking about policy and politics at the state level, at the city level– not just the mayor’s office, but city councils, public utility commissions, school boards, judges, all up and down this policy ecosystem. And so I always am encouraging people to be informed about your local representatives as well.

And actually, on this book tour, I’m partnering with a nonprofit called Lead Locally that supports down ballot climate candidates. So if folks are looking for a way right now to be part of solutions. I would recommend checking them out, considering volunteering with them to get– help get folks informed about who in their places is running on a strong climate platform and is worthy of support.

IRA FLATOW: I was really interested to see the money section of your book because I tell my staff all the time, if you want to know where the future is, you have to follow the money.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah.

IRA FLATOW: And I used to talk about how the insurance companies used to control progress, whether they were not going to fund a nuclear reactor or they’re not going to fund this thing because it’s so risky. But you’re talking in your book about the banking system, which is also really cool to talk about.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: The focus has been for so long on the shift away from fossil fuels and targeting fossil fuel corporations to try to get them to do better. That hasn’t worked very well. Fossil fuel productions are at an all-time high and at very high subsidies from our government with our tax dollars.

And so the question is not just how do we focus on shifting fossil fuel corporations, but how do we get the banks that are financing them to change their ways? Because all these companies need financing, need loans in order to keep building out the infrastructure that they’re building. They are increasing the amount of places where they’re drilling for oil and gas. It’s not on the way out.

And so if you focus on banks, which could actually do just fine without investing in fossil fuels, then that’s another potential and very important place of leverage. And that’s what my interview with wonderful author and activist Bill McKibben is focused on.

IRA FLATOW: And not only not only the banks, but you talk about what corporations can do because they have a lot of power.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, I mean that– I co-authored a chapter literally called corporations do better with Corley Kenna, who is a vice president, of policy and communications at Patagonia, a company known for its attempts to do better, and still it’s hard. I sit on the board of Patagonia, so I have an inside view to– even if you want to do it right, to get it right, that’s hard because there are so many systems that are set up to make that challenging.

For example, it’s hard for Patagonia to find a bank where they can hold their money that isn’t financing the expansion of fossil fuels, just like it’s, you know, it’s easier for individuals to do that because we’re operating on a smaller scale. But I just want to emphasize that individuals and corporations moving their money out of banks that are financing fossil fuels is perhaps the biggest impact that we can have.

IRA FLATOW: I want to end with a great story. You write about your mom and how she moved to Upstate New York, started her own regenerative farm homestead after being a public school teacher in New York City for 37 years. It’s like her own journey of what getting it right looks like to her. What stood out to you as you watched her go through that process?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: So many of us talk about our values and so few of us really live them as deeply as I’ve watched her live hers. And to be a part of watching, and supporting, and participating in this transformation of this piece of land from a bunch of lawn to 30 raised beds with herbs and vegetables to solar power on top of a barn with chickens that were completely free range and providing eggs to the local food co-op, planting fruit trees and berry bushes, sequestering carbon in the soil, healing the earth, and having so much fun doing it, I think, was just– this– we could have– this life is possible.

This other way of living is possible. And not everyone wants to do that and that’s totally fine. But there’s some version of that for everyone. What would it actually look like for us to deeply live by our values in a way that is part of this broader set of solutions we need to advance together?

IRA FLATOW: Well, very well said. And your book is a great read. Dr. Johnson. Thank you for taking time to be with us today.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: My pleasure, as always.

IRA FLATOW: Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, co-founder of the Urban Ocean Lab, author of the new book What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. You can read an excerpt from the book at sciencefriday.com get it right.

SPEAKER: Thanks, Ira. One last thing, if you’re already planning to read Dr. Johnson’s new book, why not read it with the SciFri book Club next month? That’s right, coming up this October, the SciFri book club will be reading What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. And we’re giving away 10 free copies. Find out how you can enter to win. Sign up for our in-person and online event and so much more on our website– sciencefriday.com/bookclub. That’s sciencefriday.com/bookclub.

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